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	<title>Comments for The Politics of Systems</title>
	<link>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net</link>
	<description>Thoughts on Power and Software</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on statistics vs. science (and why this is rather political) by Jonah</title>
		<link>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/06/30/statistics-vs-science-and-why-this-is-rather-political/#comment-222</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 05:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/06/30/statistics-vs-science-and-why-this-is-rather-political/#comment-222</guid>
		<description>Hi Bernhard,

Thanks for continuing this thread  - you really captured my intent better than I originally expressed ;-)

I have to say its been a bit disconcerting to learn this week that quite a few CS folks I have talked with accept Anderson's formulation, to some degree. What's scary here is that this is precisely how we relinquish control to the machines - if we give up our agency, I suppose we'll get what we deserve. 

While I've had some success swaying perspectives in conversations (some of this philosophy stuff is actually quite practical), the tougher argument to develop is that there "is no experimental method that is purely inductive, not even neural networks."  These implicit forms of knowledge representation are so counter-intuitive, that we don't really know how to think about them yet. 

I think its possible (and important) to tease out the specific intentional choices that go into deciding how and what to count, as you have done with the PageRank algorithm here. 

This was another example I came across a few months ago that struck me as problematic in similar ways: 
&lt;a href="http://alchemicalmusings.org/2007/11/13/crowded-wisdom/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Crowded Wisdom&lt;/a&gt;.

We had better pre-empt this quickly, before "they" &lt;a href="http://alchemicalmusings.org/2007/06/13/we-are-all-dying-sick-and-crazy/" rel="nofollow"&gt;decide to feed their behavioural auto-classification systems the schemes in the DSM&lt;/a&gt; ...

cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bernhard,</p>
<p>Thanks for continuing this thread  - you really captured my intent better than I originally expressed <img src='http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I have to say its been a bit disconcerting to learn this week that quite a few CS folks I have talked with accept Anderson&#8217;s formulation, to some degree. What&#8217;s scary here is that this is precisely how we relinquish control to the machines - if we give up our agency, I suppose we&#8217;ll get what we deserve. </p>
<p>While I&#8217;ve had some success swaying perspectives in conversations (some of this philosophy stuff is actually quite practical), the tougher argument to develop is that there &#8220;is no experimental method that is purely inductive, not even neural networks.&#8221;  These implicit forms of knowledge representation are so counter-intuitive, that we don&#8217;t really know how to think about them yet. </p>
<p>I think its possible (and important) to tease out the specific intentional choices that go into deciding how and what to count, as you have done with the PageRank algorithm here. </p>
<p>This was another example I came across a few months ago that struck me as problematic in similar ways:<br />
<a href="http://alchemicalmusings.org/2007/11/13/crowded-wisdom/" rel="nofollow">Crowded Wisdom</a>.</p>
<p>We had better pre-empt this quickly, before &#8220;they&#8221; <a href="http://alchemicalmusings.org/2007/06/13/we-are-all-dying-sick-and-crazy/" rel="nofollow">decide to feed their behavioural auto-classification systems the schemes in the DSM</a> &#8230;</p>
<p>cheers.</p>
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		<title>Comment on OMG, it looks editorial! by Joris van Hoboken</title>
		<link>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/07/01/omg-it-looks-editorial/#comment-220</link>
		<dc:creator>Joris van Hoboken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/07/01/omg-it-looks-editorial/#comment-220</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Digg and the &#8216;Non-Editorial&#8217; Fragmentation Machine...&lt;/strong&gt;

Bernhard Rieder points to an interesting interview about a not so surprising recommendation technology rolled out by Digg. The recommendations engine compares a user&#8217;s &#8216;digging&#8217; of stories to the digging of others, while stories are b...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Digg and the &#8216;Non-Editorial&#8217; Fragmentation Machine&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Bernhard Rieder points to an interesting interview about a not so surprising recommendation technology rolled out by Digg. The recommendations engine compares a user&#8217;s &#8216;digging&#8217; of stories to the digging of others, while stories are b&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on statistics vs. science (and why this is rather political) by Abstraction &#187; statistics vs. science (and why this is rather political)</title>
		<link>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/06/30/statistics-vs-science-and-why-this-is-rather-political/#comment-219</link>
		<dc:creator>Abstraction &#187; statistics vs. science (and why this is rather political)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 06:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/06/30/statistics-vs-science-and-why-this-is-rather-political/#comment-219</guid>
		<description>[...] statistics vs. science (and why this is rather political) In this view statistics is all about counting facts and only higher layers of abstraction (models, theories,…) can have a political&#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] statistics vs. science (and why this is rather political) In this view statistics is all about counting facts and only higher layers of abstraction (models, theories,…) can have a political&#8230; [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>Comment on my internet research 9.0 proposal: algorithmic proximity by The Politics of Systems &#187; Blog Archive &#187; OMG, it looks editorial!</title>
		<link>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/03/25/my-internet-research-90-proposal-algorithmic-proximity/#comment-218</link>
		<dc:creator>The Politics of Systems &#187; Blog Archive &#187; OMG, it looks editorial!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 10:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/03/25/my-internet-research-90-proposal-algorithmic-proximity/#comment-218</guid>
		<description>[...] and content). Around 2:50 Kast explains why Digg will list the “compatibility coefficient” (algorithmic proximity anyone?) with other users and give an indication why stories are recommended to you (because these [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] and content). Around 2:50 Kast explains why Digg will list the “compatibility coefficient” (algorithmic proximity anyone?) with other users and give an indication why stories are recommended to you (because these [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>Comment on from google app engine to google search sandbox by bernhard</title>
		<link>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/06/02/from-google-app-engine-to-google-search-sandbox/#comment-200</link>
		<dc:creator>bernhard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 17:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/06/02/from-google-app-engine-to-google-search-sandbox/#comment-200</guid>
		<description>Hi Ryan,

True, SearchMonkey is interesting and handy (played around with it a little bit some time ago) but it really doesn't go that much further than the old Google SOAP API (I don't think they ever went REST, no?) in the sense that you cannot bypass the company's ranking. These services just allow for application level access to the normal search interface. The SearchMonkey &lt;a href="http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/smguide/sm_overview.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;overview&lt;/a&gt; states:

"SearchMonkey does NOT enable you to reorder results on a search page. You can use SearchMonkey to change your search result display so that they are more attractive and useful, but SearchMonkey does not change algorithmic rankings."

Sure, you can use AND NOT operators to exclude certain terms or rerank results (I used that in a &lt;a href="http://procspace.net" rel="nofollow"&gt;tool&lt;/a&gt; I built for my thesis) but you cannot directly access the index of crawled sites without passing through a ranking layer. What would be an interesting compromise though would be to have access to thousands or tens of thousands of results with one API call (through REST or SOAP or whatever) so you could do some serious reranking. But neither Yahoo nor Google allow that :-(.

For the Google Sandbox I have in mind, you'd have to run code on Google's servers and that's why I find the App platform interesting. But sure, currently it's definitely not about opening up search. Just wishful thinking...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ryan,</p>
<p>True, SearchMonkey is interesting and handy (played around with it a little bit some time ago) but it really doesn&#8217;t go that much further than the old Google SOAP API (I don&#8217;t think they ever went REST, no?) in the sense that you cannot bypass the company&#8217;s ranking. These services just allow for application level access to the normal search interface. The SearchMonkey <a href="http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/smguide/sm_overview.html" rel="nofollow">overview</a> states:</p>
<p>&#8220;SearchMonkey does NOT enable you to reorder results on a search page. You can use SearchMonkey to change your search result display so that they are more attractive and useful, but SearchMonkey does not change algorithmic rankings.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure, you can use AND NOT operators to exclude certain terms or rerank results (I used that in a <a href="http://procspace.net" rel="nofollow">tool</a> I built for my thesis) but you cannot directly access the index of crawled sites without passing through a ranking layer. What would be an interesting compromise though would be to have access to thousands or tens of thousands of results with one API call (through REST or SOAP or whatever) so you could do some serious reranking. But neither Yahoo nor Google allow that :-(.</p>
<p>For the Google Sandbox I have in mind, you&#8217;d have to run code on Google&#8217;s servers and that&#8217;s why I find the App platform interesting. But sure, currently it&#8217;s definitely not about opening up search. Just wishful thinking&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on from google app engine to google search sandbox by Ryan Shaw</title>
		<link>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/06/02/from-google-app-engine-to-google-search-sandbox/#comment-199</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 15:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/06/02/from-google-app-engine-to-google-search-sandbox/#comment-199</guid>
		<description>While well short of full access to the index, Yahoo's new &lt;a href="http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/" rel="nofollow"&gt;SearchMonkey&lt;/a&gt; platform is a step toward the kind of open search platform you describe. Google's App Engine, on the other hand, appears to me to be geared toward easily scaling up (and wedding to the Google platform) standard database-driven websites, not opening up search. In fact, Google's trajectory has been to gradually provide *less* access to search data, as for example when they replaced their REST search API with a less flexible but more easily controlled (by Google) Javascript API. (The REST API is now back, but with very restrictive terms of service that essentially disallow using it for anything other than displaying Google search results on a web page.) Yahoo perceives a potential strategic advantage in building an open platform where Google refuses to be fully open; time will tell if they are correct or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While well short of full access to the index, Yahoo&#8217;s new <a href="http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/" rel="nofollow">SearchMonkey</a> platform is a step toward the kind of open search platform you describe. Google&#8217;s App Engine, on the other hand, appears to me to be geared toward easily scaling up (and wedding to the Google platform) standard database-driven websites, not opening up search. In fact, Google&#8217;s trajectory has been to gradually provide *less* access to search data, as for example when they replaced their REST search API with a less flexible but more easily controlled (by Google) Javascript API. (The REST API is now back, but with very restrictive terms of service that essentially disallow using it for anything other than displaying Google search results on a web page.) Yahoo perceives a potential strategic advantage in building an open platform where Google refuses to be fully open; time will tell if they are correct or not.</p>
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		<title>Comment on why web 2.0 literature is a little unsatisfactory by Kritik mot litteratur om webb 2.0 &#171; Internetsociologi</title>
		<link>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/05/05/why-web-20-literature/#comment-197</link>
		<dc:creator>Kritik mot litteratur om webb 2.0 &#171; Internetsociologi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/05/05/why-web-20-literature/#comment-197</guid>
		<description>[...] &#183;Taggad here comes everybody, kritik, litteratur, webb 2.0   Bernhard Rieder reflekterar i ett blogginlägg över den stora flora av litteratur om webb 2.0 som finns tillgänglig. Han riktar kritik (vilket [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] &#183;Taggad here comes everybody, kritik, litteratur, webb 2.0   Bernhard Rieder reflekterar i ett blogginlägg över den stora flora av litteratur om webb 2.0 som finns tillgänglig. Han riktar kritik (vilket [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>Comment on why web 2.0 literature is a little unsatisfactory by Web 2.0 Literatur &#171; if its on teh interweb it must be true</title>
		<link>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/05/05/why-web-20-literature/#comment-192</link>
		<dc:creator>Web 2.0 Literatur &#171; if its on teh interweb it must be true</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 21:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/05/05/why-web-20-literature/#comment-192</guid>
		<description>[...]  Ver&#246;ffentlicht in Mai 30, 2008 von Peter   Bernhard Rieder macht sich in einem Posting Gedanken über aktuelle Web 2.0 Literatur und über deren wissenschaftliche Relevanz: dass sie nämlich wenig Neues bringt, speziell aus [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;]  Ver&ouml;ffentlicht in Mai 30, 2008 von Peter   Bernhard Rieder macht sich in einem Posting Gedanken über aktuelle Web 2.0 Literatur und über deren wissenschaftliche Relevanz: dass sie nämlich wenig Neues bringt, speziell aus [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>Comment on where is collective intelligence going? by bernhard</title>
		<link>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/05/01/where-is-collective-intelligence-going/#comment-149</link>
		<dc:creator>bernhard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 06:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/05/01/where-is-collective-intelligence-going/#comment-149</guid>
		<description>Hi Bill,

That's very much true - I think that there is a common idea behind IEML and Esperanto but there are also some pronounced differences: IEML is computer processable, meaning that the language is schematic enough to allow reasoning by algorithm. This is especially interesting for searching and other automated forms of semantic processing (clustering, filtering, etc.). In a sense, IEML is seated in the middle of a triangle formed by symbolic logic, a generalistic philosophical ontology and Esperanto...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bill,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s very much true - I think that there is a common idea behind IEML and Esperanto but there are also some pronounced differences: IEML is computer processable, meaning that the language is schematic enough to allow reasoning by algorithm. This is especially interesting for searching and other automated forms of semantic processing (clustering, filtering, etc.). In a sense, IEML is seated in the middle of a triangle formed by symbolic logic, a generalistic philosophical ontology and Esperanto&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on where is collective intelligence going? by Bill Chapman</title>
		<link>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/05/01/where-is-collective-intelligence-going/#comment-148</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Chapman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 18:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thepoliticsofsystems.net/2008/05/01/where-is-collective-intelligence-going/#comment-148</guid>
		<description>I agree with you that "if collective forms of “problem solving” are to go beyond what they currently do, they will have to find modes of organization that are more sophisticated than the platforms we currently have. These modes will also have to negociate a balance between “equal opportunity” and “equal representation” and make its peace with instituionalization. But what is wrong with Esperanto? Esperanto was a 'bottom-up creation', ordinary people getting together to form international democratic institutions such as Universala Esperanto-Asocio.

You might be surprised to learn that Esperanto has an extensive, lively indigenous culture and an original literature to rival that of many ethnic tongues. Naturally it didn't start out that way, but when you have such a large community speaking a common language for such a long time, it's probably inevitable that culture will emerge. People around the world use Esperanto every day for everything from childrearing to religious worship to technical manuals to science (I am a subscriber to Scirenca Revuo) to erotica.

Take a look at www.esperanto.net</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you that &#8220;if collective forms of “problem solving” are to go beyond what they currently do, they will have to find modes of organization that are more sophisticated than the platforms we currently have. These modes will also have to negociate a balance between “equal opportunity” and “equal representation” and make its peace with instituionalization. But what is wrong with Esperanto? Esperanto was a &#8216;bottom-up creation&#8217;, ordinary people getting together to form international democratic institutions such as Universala Esperanto-Asocio.</p>
<p>You might be surprised to learn that Esperanto has an extensive, lively indigenous culture and an original literature to rival that of many ethnic tongues. Naturally it didn&#8217;t start out that way, but when you have such a large community speaking a common language for such a long time, it&#8217;s probably inevitable that culture will emerge. People around the world use Esperanto every day for everything from childrearing to religious worship to technical manuals to science (I am a subscriber to Scirenca Revuo) to erotica.</p>
<p>Take a look at <a href="http://www.esperanto.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.esperanto.net</a></p>
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